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  ·  3 years ago (edited)

Pretty much how I see it except I don't agree with this part:

until I see some concrete action and commitments on his behalf, I won't believe anything he says

Even if he did that I wouldn't believe it. With the damage he has already done to his credibility, it would take years to believe anything he says (and likewise for Ned). Whatever sort of "concrete action" or "commitments" he might undertake in the short term I would view as being a manipulative trick or convenient-for-Justin position-of-the-day until proven otherwise.

I think its fair to say that we shouldn't trust Justin Sun or the developers and the witnesses fighting against Justin Sun. The record has shown that the dev team prioritizes whales over smaller channels so their concerns about protecting steem for steemians is laughable. They're just as much concerned about their own stake and rewards as Justin. This doesn't apply to all whales and witnesses but the assumption to just blindly support whales/witnesses because of this Tron dilemma isn't the way to go either.

Why would he ever commit to anything? He despises the STEEM community due to the damage we have done (might have) to his relationship with CZ and his reputation in crypto.

Id bet anything that he has developed a strong hatred for STEEM and would crush us if it wouldnt mean him losing money.
He is a despot, simple as that, and having a rowdy bunch of idealists oppose him and win the PR game hurts his ego greatly.

I see no way of witnesses working with him. There will always be this lingering fear that he might try something shady and im sure he will never let us put anything in code that will reduce his power over the chain to prevent that possibility.

Why would he ever commit to anything?

See above


I really appreciate you took the time to write this @drakos, because I think this clearly states the current situation in a way that everyone can understand. I have tried desperately to remain impartial since the announcement of Steemit Inc sale, as a Witness I fully supported the Soft Fork 22.2 as a preventive measure to prevent a potential hostile take over of the Steem Blockchain. It truly saddened me to see how it divided our community, with arguments for and against. And it really surprises me that after what it was there to protect against actually happened - there are still arguments that it should not have happened. The soft fork did not force this situation, all that happened was nobody realised how much influence over exchanges Justin held.

But trust can not be bought, it has to be earned. I joined the Steem Blockchain in March 2017 (my three year anniversary soon) which was still a year after inception. And since then I have followed many people, enjoyed posts and company made friends and generally found a social platform that is unrivalled. I also am aware of the majority of our Witnesses, and while I do not know them personally I know I trust them with the future of the Steem Blockchain. Through the last years we have seen the Steem Blockchain evolve and grow - and every step of the way it has required hard work testing, adjusting and fixing code - by yourself and all the other Witnesses at the very top.

And this makes me wonder, why would anyone support someone with no history on the Steem Blockchain, a very sketchy past history if you take the time to look, and who's only priority seems to be getting Steem sent out to exchanges in the fastest time possible? Maybe it's time to remove the rose tinted glasses and look at the Sun with a Welder's Glass #14 - so instead of being blinded you finally see the truth.

Koreans are a part of the Steem community, you can't just ditch them out from the equation just because their interest doesn't aline with yours.

If we are going to start dividing communities according to their opinions this is not going to end well for us.

Their opinions showed us that the STEEM COMMUNITY as a whole is not really on the same page concerning the current events.

You are always trying to be the Avant-Guard person, to prove yourself and make noise. You really should stop fueling the hate between communities.

  ·  3 years ago (edited)

Their opinions showed us that the STEEM COMMUNITY as a whole is not really on the same page concerning the current events.

You will never have full unanimity, but the position of the Korean commmunity on e.g. downvotes has been thoroughly rejected. The only reason there is anything resembling a stalemate is that Justin used exchanges to over the chain to enable the "non-voting" Steemit stake to vote, for his own interests which have nothing to do with downvotes. Take that out of the equation and the "remove downvotes" agenda returns to being the dumb and fringe position it was before.

Tyranny of the majority.

Of course, you will never have a full unanimity, I don't see where I did mention the opposite thing. Even though having unanimity doesn't mean that the idea is good or dumb. I also don't remember discussing the downvoting thing above.

I was clearly stating that discussion (regardless of the subject) should not be based on:






Using these retarded approaches will only fuel racism, culture war, and ethnic segregation on the chain. You wanna use hate as a way to hoard the masses? be my guest. Will see how this will work out in the end.

You said

Their opinions showed us that the STEEM COMMUNITY as a whole is not really on the same page concerning the current events

I'm disagreeing. The Steem community is absolutely on the same page concerning the current events, by an enormous margin. Justin is on the other side of the page, and basically no one else.

The only reason there is anything remotely resembling balance is Justin colluding with or tricking the exchanges to deploy the Steemit ninja-mine stake to take over the chain. There is no meaningful Steem community conflict otherwise.

This has nothing do with racism, culture or ethnicity and fuck you for suggesting it.

I'm disagreeing. The Steem community is absolutely on the same page concerning the current events

I think you are one of those people who sees 49/51, then call it a unanimity or same page.

This has nothing do with racism, culture or ethnicity and fuck you for suggesting it.

Because using the number 4 and treating Koreans as a piece of shit, and considering anyone who doesn't post in English as a subhuman is clearly not an invitation for hate. Segregation and culture war is already there, you are just too blind to notice it.

As for the fuck you, I believe Sun took a few pieces from your pride and vanity, and that's enough for me.

  ·  3 years ago (edited)

treating Koreans as a piece of shit, and considering anyone who doesn't post in English as a subhuman is clearly not an invitation for hate

Speak for yourself, I've never done that. In fact I have respectfully attempted to engage with Koreans on Steem and reason over some differences in opinion, despite the difficulties presented by the language barrier.

As for the fuck you, I believe Sun took a few pieces from your pride and vanity, and that's enough for me.

No, just destroyed in an instant of greed and arrogance what many people have worked hard to build for years. Wow, a billionaire can fuck with the #80 ranked blockchain just to show how well connected and powerful he is, and to try to make a little more money. Impressive as all fuck if you ask me. Not.

I don't care if he is Chinese or Norwegian or comes from Mars. He's the same reprehensible piece of trash to me, based on his behavior and nothing else.


Dude GTFO with that racism bullshit, this ain't the Democrat SJW woke party. Blaming events not going your way on racism is the lamest excuse for retards.

No shit fucktard. Trying to be a man?

Look in the mirror, Ned's balls are still marked on your forehead retard. Don't come here playing the hero because no one is going to believe it, well apart from other simps like you. Your problem is that you whine a lot, more like you scream for attention. Always pandering like a pig, seeking the approval of other people. It's disturbing to see that despite kissing asses and having no honor for that long, you were never able to secure your place at the top 20 for long. Have some integrity and self-respect, and do something for the community, something more than playing your sneaky tricks on the witness page of your website retard. Maybe then, people will start seeing you as an honest man. Stop waiting for charity.

Look at your history on the chain retard, it seems to me that you are into the SJW deep. Didn't know that sucking other men balls was a conservative thing to do.

Despite not agreeing with him, it was a pleasure to see Sun destroy your special safe place gender-inclusive turbo rainbow lollipop little hideout. This is turbocapitalism retard, whining like a crazy short-haired feminist is not going to change the facts. Either you accept the idea that someone outsmarted and fucked your little retarded brain and move on, or you keep whining for years.

Go retard it's time to harvest your emotions, then take those bitchy emotions and shave them deep in your ass, then we can talk logically. Build yourself an identity simp, stop from being so artificial.

Now go to your friends on discord to feel great again,

PS: Always funny to see top witnesses defining each other, an old habit of jerking each other I guess.


Ableist too. Too many sins to throw any stones there.

On the contrary, I have no ill intentions or hate against the Koreans or anyone else. I welcome their opinion and all dialogue. However, their perception of downvotes doesn't align with the majority, remember, the supermajority of the witnesses endorsed free downvotes in EIP and I don't think downvotes will be removed anytime soon. There's always the possibility to control downvotes in SMT's, as it was explained to @proxy.token.

you can't just ditch them out from the equation

Yes you can and we should ditch them. They are a danger to decentralization and are at this moment hurting the chain greatly by keeping sockpuppet accounts in control of the chain.
They are an accomplice in the hostile takeover.

I cannot agree that they are aiding and abetting Tron's takeover. What they're doing is extortion, and they're using potential treachery to do it, but they've fallen short of actually enabling the takeover.

I don't think that's the right reason to ditch them. I think the extortion by threatening treachery, coupled with the reasons they're bitching about flags (botting mercilessly and getting flagged for it), are the right reasons. The quick powerdown they seek is simply misunderstanding - or they're hackers and want to steal our SP but the long powerdowns keep preventing their getting away with our Steem when they seize our accounts.

Makes no sense to me otherwise.

I think people see our 7-8 witnesses in top 20 and they think that there's a balance. I don't see it like that.
Justin is in control, the chain is centralized, he is the sole BP and the hostile takeover is done.
If you take that approach the Koreans are indeed enabling the takeover by voting for him.

I don't disagree with your view of consensus atm. I do disagree proxy.token voters see it that way. I reckon extortion is enough to discount their concerns though, and I reckon we're on the same side of that coin when all is said and done.

  ·  3 years ago (edited)

So is there a way forward, @drakos? Or are we just hanging around until we fork off a new chain free of Sun and the ninja stake?

I ask this because I don't see the witnesses making any realistic negotiations. Sun ISN'T going to remove his sockpuppet witnesses while there's a chance his stake could be ring-fenced again. You guys must surely know this. Yet you keep "negotiating" like this is an option.

Instead of repeatedly asking him to remove his sockpuppets without offering anything in exchange for this, why not try and negotiate their removal? I've posted this before, so sorry to anyone who has to keep reading it, but we should try and get Sun to commit a portion (25%?) of the ninja stake for development (via the SPS or some other independent mechanism). In exchange we could offer him 4 week powerdown, as that's something that has received some support prior to all this. He could of course run and dump his remaining 75%, but with 25% locked up he has an incentive to stick around and get that 25% and more back through growing the chain.

As it stands, it looks like he'll eventually force a hardfork on us and then possibly dump 100% of his tokens. If we can give him a reason to stick around (to grow his investment), we can make a statement that no more of his stake will be ring-fenced (other than perhaps removing witness voting rights), and he can then get rid of his sockpuppet witnesses. This should at least be attempted if we want to save this version of the Steem blockchain.

Unless we are all just treading water waiting for a fork off to a new coin/chain...

Sitting here waiting for the Communist Justin Shun to be arrested and three exchanges being shut down. The integrity of Cryptocurrency deserves that for this illegal collision. This is why Cryptocurrency will be banned. Just give it some time.... Sell it off before Justin takes your investments to ZERO....Oh and for the Korean's, I thought that they would've learned their lesson from Kim Jung puke but obviously not...

Clearly Sun is being encouraged to ignore the many representations of Stinc principals that the stake he acquired has come with obligations to fund development, and so far has avoided any such commitment.

Similarly, the legacy consensus has long maintained a 30x weighting of substantial stake over governance, and dismissed community concerns with a vehemence that raises questions of collusion with stakeholders that have historically controlled governance heretofore. I have raised the issue of equalizing the influence of stake on governance to extreme prejudice, and I presently see that our community is between a rock and a hard place: Sun as a solitary overlord, and a cabal of oligarchs controlling consensus by 30x weighting of the largest stakes on the chain that has traditionally kept them in power, and the vast majority of new Steem created by inflation flowing to those whales.

"User A has 1m Steem, casts 30 votes for witness, and wields 30M Steem influence over governance. User B has 100 Steem, casts 30 votes for witness, and wields 3000 Steem influence over governance. The difference between their hodlings is 999,900 Steem. The difference in the weight of their influence on governance however is 29,997,000 Steem."

This is easily resolved by applying nothing more innovative than VP that affects all other voting to witness votes, and depleting witness votes 100%. This enables 1 Steem = 1 witness vote, and User A's 999,900 larger stake will produce 999,900 weight on governance, which reasonably enables DPoS to work.

Absent rectification of this weighting Sun's estimated ~100M Steem hodlings can theoretically bear 3B Steem weight on Steem governance, and not even @freedom and @pumpkin are competent to oppose it because of the 30x weighting Sun's larger stake avails.

Either we stop enabling centralization of Steem governance, or Steem will be centralized. It appears we are presently not being offered any choice of decentralizaton between the blue pills on offer from either side.


I must say, I like this idea of yours.

It's how DPoS naturally is maximally decentralized and each Steem of every user wields equal weight on governance. It's how I think we all expect DPoS works. I haven't understood any good reason for it to be otherwise. I have understood bad reasons for it.

I have been discussing this for weeks, and only @smooth has presented what is a plausible reason for this election mechanism, but what I understood of the risk he discussed it reducing was far less harmful (a 1/3 +1 attack that prevents consensus) than the actual damage this election mechanism has long done to decentralization and now threatens to completely centralize Steem under one user.

if the witnesses have any senses whatsoever, they burn justin and his stake as soon as they gain the ability to do so

  • justin's history of dishonesty (and the possibility of alignment with CCP and/or technocrat goals)
  • as long as that stake is out there; steem is not decentralized, and cant be: steem was decentralized under ned ONLY AND AS LONG AS ned kept his promises to the steem community to use that stake in a way that was promised from the start...the second that stake was sold, that promise is null and void

The problem I see is that the reverse is more likely. Sun is buying Steem and we are losing consensus witnesses as a result.

Corporations transfer liabilities with the assets when they are sold. Those promises pertain to Stinc and the founder's stake, not to @ned. Sun and Tron are bound by Stinc's representations to investors because they are Stinc, and Stinc was bound by those representations.

can't argue, and the market dump may have put him in a good spot to buy up more...that is if it didn't catch him with his pants down

which might be a good opportunity for everyone else to buy steem (assuming the crash didnt burn their liquid capability too)

new conspiracy?
justin cooked up corona-chan to crash steem price!

LOL Don't say such things. Someone will believe it.


Fantastic write up of the temperature of this situation. You nailed the tone and everything. We need more of this!

Also, don’t forget to fuck Ned! #fuckyouned

If dude ever bothered to read some of those open letters, how can he still be clueless about what steem is?
I personally see no other way out than a chain split at this point.

honestly after the korean community interview with justin almost sounded like a foxnews interview with trump. they kept throwing him soft balls asking him to do things that he already announced he wanted to do in the first place. like wanting to remove downvotes (which is the proof of brain whitepaper concept in the firstplace). when asking about their alternative to preventing identity fraud to be profitable and illegal abuses after the interview they only said we should "educate" our selfs....

then representative of steemit was surprisingly on our side when argueing against justin, and he suggested justin to learn more about steem, and what he knows about tron cannot simply be applied to steem. justin wants a 3 day powerdown time since it worked with tron, but steem and steemit said it would not work, but were willing to compromise to 4 week, while korean community was like ye sure anywhere between 1-4 weeks would work. i would prefer keeping it at 13 weeks :/

it ultimately allows exchanges to keep more of their steem in SP and react to market changes more quickly, while it will also have impact on volatility and steem price...


We have been saying these same points over and over again. I wonder whether @justinsunsteemit his team is really understanding the turmoil.

Still just talking is circles?? Gheesh...

That's what he does.

I think it is time for people to try and understand the Korean Side of the down vote issue. I read the transcript of the discord chat, look at the answers again that were given to and responses about the down vote issue. The down vote system needs to be fixed, it is not a hard fix, when down voting using the steemit front end you get a pop-up that list the reason. The pop-up is there already, add check boxes next to the reason, and code in an auto non-editable comment of choice made. Then the community can decide if the down vote was justified.

As a society we do not require justifications for positive actions under taken by the individual, in fact a lot of people see such justification when given as false and self serving. We as a society do require justifications for negative action taken, justify why you shot that person justify why you beat that person, justify why you robbed that person, justify why you were speeding and endangering the lives of others, we don't just want as a society we demand as a society the justifications for negative actions. Then we as a society decide if the action even though negative was justified. From what I have seen and read from the Korean side of this issue is what they are looking for, not a blank check to scam, plagiarizer or abuse steem, but for a justification for the down votes.

Fix the down vote system, and the Koreans would, I am sure be glad to support the witness side of things.

First, I think their position isn't necessarily just that flags don't come with a comment you can flag back. My understanding is the worst kind of botting, self-voting, and circle jerking was being undertaken and because of the language barrier, had been for a while, until they were served a cease and desist flagging.

Secondly, I think that if you want a drop down for flags, you should want one for upvotes too. I agree flags are broken, but I am not sure a dropdown menu is the right fix. Maybe they should need to come with a comment, but then I'm hoist on my own petard, and upvotes should too.

Frankly, since I oppose automated voting for any reason, I actually could maybe live with that, as long as the comments either way weren't automated, but written by a person.

Lastly, I don't think folks undertake extortion for only stated reasons. I don't think they are simply interested in the specific fixes suggested, but seek more power out of avarice.

It's a political manouver, not just redressing grievances.

I do see it as political maneuvering, I would prefer that people manually vote myself, I do understand why some don't, it is not that easy of a thing to do. I also remember the madhatter days of "I gave you an upvote" comment. Those did not go over very well, it was seen as glad handing and trying to get comment votes back. I see down votes as a negative action, does not matter the reason altruistic or not a down vote is a negative action taken against a post, an account or an individual and have led to blanket automated down votes on some people for everything. People can justify all they want about protecting the reward pool, but it is still a down vote, it is still a negative action, I would prefer the down voter leave the reason, but if an automated response is acceptable to the down voter or they do not feel like elaborating on the why of it, at least the community can see the vote clearly.

Check box for up votes I can live with also, even though I do not like the idea of having to justify positive actions, it hurts a person's karma when they point out their good deeds to people.

Flags are negative inputs on accounts, of that there is no doubt, and folks that dissemble regarding that are disingenuous.

I had hoped to get past check boxes. My views have never fit in one.

Thank you for your clear understanding and unwavering support.

I do not believe the Koreans supporting Justin Sun misunderstand anything. Yes, they haven't been getting their way. Yes they are trying to get their way (nonsurprise Justin suddenly supports random policy), they will bail with Justin Sun. The worst part is they will exploit the reward pool for as long aspossible why we will stick around to provide any value. Also, their long term business plans when that fail are suited fornthe Tron network.

I want them to leave. Its not worth cooperating because the Steem they want isn't Steem. Its their personal money printing factory at our expense.

All of the above.

"Why not, some said: "let him dump, we could buy cheap STEEM". Oh yeh? If that happens, price gets trashed, expect more whales (bad or otherwise) to gain more power."

So him having the stake is bad, but him dumping and allowing the community to buy it, cheap, is also bad. If he dumps on exchanges everyone has the same chance to buy it, whale or minnow. That seems like a strange justification for opposing a dump. I think the best thing that could happen for decentralization is a bunch of steem gets sold for dirt cheap. But that is just me.

Considering the global markets are all down, stocks, precious metals and cryptos, I think it's the worst timing for anyone to dump anything.

I don't disagree with you, but I am glad you do not control my investment decisions just the same. Also, per your analysis, this is a great time to be buying Steem.

If only there were masses of it for sale cheap...

Honestly, with what happened to the governance due to exchanges voting with traders' tokens, I say we increase the power down length and not decrease it.

It seems to me the best defense against exchanges is a long stake duration.

Steem DPOS protocol needs to evolve into Steem REDPOS

Everyone deserves a second chance. He got much more than that. But he blew every single one of them. It's over.

It is indeed sad and unfortunate, Justin could have had his cake and eat it too if he was just upfront and honest with us

All I saw him say is ... I want witnesses to say they respect property rights oh and that he would get a “team”. He didn’t address any of steem/witnesses concerns.

Excellent article @drakos! Anyone who's confused about the current situation should be pointed to this post.

This is all truth and nothing but the truth.

Sun cannot be trusted, hence his constantly shifting demands/offers that reflect only one consistency, he wants complete freedom and control to rest solely with him. He thinks he owns a company here and does not understand the difference between that and buying a large stake in a decentralized network.

I support your words!

@drakos It is good to finally hear someone drawing a clear line and standing firm to what they believe in. I hear you very well.


#blockchain #community #exchanges #palnet

My God! To return to this 'mishegas' !

As always you want to know what's going on just follow the money

At the end of the day the Steemit TRON Korea Sun story is no different to Scientology, EST etc. A total headfuck where most everybody gets what they deserve for their gullibility - shafted. And the luminaries make off like the bandits they are.


I support your words.
It is a pitty that the Korean community can't understand why the downvotes are so important.
It will be difficult to change their mind.
Keep pushing @drakos !

Full support, we need to talk to the Korean community though and trying to explain why downvotes and decentralization are so important. Without downvotes there would be no balance in the system to fight misuse, spam, and plagiarism. The ninja-mined Genesis stake of Steemit Inc. is not a normal account and has certain strings attached like being used mainly for the development, infrastructure and marketing of the Steem ecosystem and should stay non-voting / neutral all the time.

"Without downvotes there would be no balance in the system to fight misuse, spam, and plagiarism."

This is known to them I have spoken with. They've been botting hard and the language barrier let them get away with it for a long time - I am told. The language barrier kept me from ascertaining this for myself.

They want to keep printing Steem with bots, and being flagged stopped them.

What's the problem with having to justify your downvote and for that justification to be public for people to agree with it or not? As I understand that's what the Korean community wants not the abolishment of downvotes all together. It's meant to be proof of brain yet a lot of downvoting is made by bot accounts no history no interactions just downvotes done by cowards hidding behind annonymous accounts I don't think that's healthy for the system

Most bot downvotes have almost no value associated with them, so it does not really matter. Maybe we can think of a system how to fight downvote spam as well.

A hundred worthless bot downvotes add up it's also more about how they are used more not as a way of curating content but as a way of persecuting people who don't agree with whales have different opinions than majority of community etc
In short I think downvotes if smthng should be aimed at what is said I something not at who says it while with downvote bots targeting a user where is the content curation? It's just a way of bullying people of the platform, not really the land of free where there is no tyranny or racism as many claim steem is( personally I think most of those people either have there heads burried deep in sand or never had a thought of there own)

I'll keep red pill, thank you very much, Mr Sun.

Posted using Partiko Android

Tbh this shit getting tense each day and there seems to be no win win situation. How are we going forward? that's something I would like to know since this deal turns sour.

Like a monkey fucking a football.


Yes! Except clearly, I forgot a word.

!giphy so dangerous

Posted using Partiko Android

giphy is supported by witness untersatz!

  ·  3 years ago (edited)

Justin Sun is a a smart guy? Says Who??? Justin is so ignorant about how this blockchain actually works he makes himself look stupid. Justin has disgraced himself and can never recover from this unless he changes his though process.

Who said he was smart lol. Indeed he's totally ignorant of what he bought.

Well I mean he did graduate from the Jack Ma School of Blah Blah Blah! He’s supposed to be smart but he proves with every meeting he is not a smart man. His ego is too big for success.

Right On!