Vlog 459: A sad day for Steem

in exyle •  2 years ago 

I have seen a lot of euphoric reactions to the recent Soft Fork Annoucement.

I see no reason to be euphoric or proud.

What has happened has set a precedent that will be felt for the rest of the lifetime of the Steem Blockchain.

I talk about that in my vlog.

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Thank feck dude. I'm with you. It's hard to see so many, we did it posts. It's a precedent that on top of all the other things that has happened here just adds that little bit more tarnish to the perception we have.

The exit criteria lacks definition, which is worrying too.

Sad day indeed.

Freeze first, talk later. I would have preferred the other way around.

Yes it is a sad day, I agree. It should not have come to this. This should risk have been mitigated by code long time ago. Why wasn't it? It's a tough cookie to crack, but has always been on the table. But only recently gained critical mass. Just as @steem.dao is a special coded username in the blockchain, the Steemit Inc stake should have that coded in (IMHO).

Per your suggestion: if it was (more) talks first, freeze later: it could would have resulted in a hardfork once a huge powerdown would have started. Which then all exchanges in question need to have had addressed. This is a softfork which blocks certain operations from being executed by accounts owned by Steemit.inc. No funds are nullified.

That said for over a week numerous witnesses have tried to reach out to Steemit INC, talks with Steemit INC devs and we formulated pretty specific questions for the AMA. But the AMA was very disappointing: self-moderated, picking 3 lame questions on the spot and one vague answer: "for now". I feel that with the PR moves from Tron Network specifically there is an anology with your "Freeze first, talk later". What they did, and are still doing is pushing a narrative of an upcoming Token Swap of the STEEM Blockchain, thus: "Publish first, talk later".

Please understand this:

  • Nobody took it lightly to decide upon doing this.
  • This is not a precedent: My opinion is, if any single person buys a major stake now, wether OTC or via exchanges in STEEM, and starts voting with it then so be it: But the Steemit Inc stake is a special one as defined in "social contracts", code upgrades, video interviews.

Some articles which are good reads on the current situation:

I do understand why the action was taken and the reasoning behind it (even though I completely don't agree with it).

If you ask anyone here if it's ok to freeze their account, they would run for that PD button indeed.

So you don't ask. You do it (with consensus but obviously without debate).

For me, that is a problem, I believe it has set a precedent and it will be a looming option over the chain for anyone that in the eyes of the current governance might have bad intentions to the chain (whatever that may be, and that is the slippery slope).

Unfreezing the account will be a whole new puzzle to solve now too.

I hope you can imagine that it hasn't been easy for me to have such an opposing view from others on this topic, especially after all these years.

Thanks, Roeland, for your reply.

the precedent is more like the biggest whale threatening the safety of the chain and the community reacting to it. you're nitpicking the investment side of it. for any future investors the lesson is keep your fingers off twitter if you dunno what you're doing. not a bad precedent if you ask me.


governance ...

the simple fact that accounts CAN be frozen whatever the reason proves my point that this thing is about as centralized as any government, a few people decide and you are fucked, and that's that

the exact opposite of what BTC originally intended : DE-centralization ... no one is the boss, this stinks, another reason not to buy one cent of STEEM anymore

Agree, temporarily freezing pre-mined stake is actually a bold and protective move for the community and all who have honestly invested in Steem. Steemit's stake is similar to Steem DAO and should not take part in voting for example but only be used for maintaining, developing and marketing Steem. That was an unwritten agreement we had the last couple of years and should now be set in code, steem on :)

Yup. Talk first. Them take action if need be.

It seems that communication and transparency is only cared about when 'we' demand it of others.

Communication was done first, Exyle was too busy to acknowledge this I guess. Doesn’t fit his narrative maybe 🤷‍♀️ Not sure.

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

What are the exact exit criteria of the fork?

I think that is quite important to nail down. There are no clear criteria for the cessation of the fork. In fact, If I were to be picky the wording of the statement implies that based on community feedback the fork can be adjusted.

That doesn't sound temporary to me.

If an action such as this is going to be taken then it should be communicated very clearly what needs to be done in order for the fork to be removed.

Unless the intention is for the fork to never be undone completely? If that is the case then it should not be ambiguous. It should not be open to interpretation.

Communication should be clear and concise and unambiguous.

I would challenge the idea that clarification was never received on the forced token swap, from what I saw it was. I am referring to the conversation with Andrarchy that Exyle himself had and posted about just recently. There was a lot cleared up there.

This asking ona daily basis. Who asked who? Via what channels? How was it escalated when no response was given? Was there any response?

Finally, the perception is what is key. The perception outwith this little fragile bubble we live in. We already have a poor reputation. This, in my opinion, does little to paint us in a better light.

I am glad that you approve of it being temporary. But how can it be if we do not know what I have outlined above?

What are the exact exit criteria of the fork?

Different witnesses may have different expectations. So far, there seem to be only two witnesses in the top 31 who do not run the soft fork (timcliff and jesta). Of these, some may be content with Steemit and Tron giving more information such as a roadmap or vision, plus stating what they will be doing with the stake. Others may have a more drastic view and think that the stake should not have been Ned's to sell for profit to begin with, and should instead stay with the community.

So how would it be resolved if there are different views for what the criteria should be? It's quite simple. As we learn more, some witnesses may be comforted by what they see and choose to not run the soft fork, then eventually there'll be a majority who do not, and it will be reverted.

My criteria is first that we get a concrete and detailed answer by Steemit Inc and Justin Sun themself. If their answer is drastically different to the original promise Steemit Inc had, then I think it would be fair for the community and stakeholders who invested time and money into Steem on that basis to have the time and availability to leave before such changes are applied. If they promise to treat the stake the way they did before through not voting, then I would expect them to use the "decline voting rights" operation which removes those functions from an account. If they do go along with the opinion that some have that the stake they have is supposed to be used for community growth and further decentralization, then I would hope to see some action performed that make this "trustless" through either a donation to the steem.dao, or a foundation.

The important part is this: We need to know if the previous conditions for the stake still apply or not. And if not, what the new conditions are. And then be able to move on from there.

I agree that there is a risk here in terms of perception. I also think Tron and Justin Sun offers a unique opportunity for Steem to gain some much needed marketing talent and financial resources. So I am motivated, and can promise, that I will do what I can to pursue a positive outcome for Steem, and hope for a situation where the two projects can find mutual benefit and create a win-win for users and stakeholders on both sides. Therefore I will be spending a lot of time and effort the next few days in a diplomatic way to try and make that happen.

Therefore I will be spending a lot of time and effort the next few days in a diplomatic way to try and make that happen.

That is very comforting to hear. I appreciate that.

I wish, reading your criteria above (third para) that they were defined as such by the community consensus statement because your criteria are concrete and do elicit confidence.

As we learn more, some witnesses may be comforted by what they see and choose to not run the soft fork, then eventually there'll be a majority who do not, and it will be reverted.

They may, or they may be caught up in the group think and not wish to step out with the common thinking. You might be able to tell but I am not very fond of may in this circumstance. You could say that there may be a chance that strong personalities push their own distrust if Justin Sun onto others through the coming weeks. There may not be a sufficient answer and the softfork may remain in place forever.

I guess we will see. Sorry for removing your witness vote after such a short time, I will, based on your splendid discourse here, re-instate it.

Told you I was flighty ;O)

I very much appreciate it! I also realize how providing clear criteria would make this appear more thought through and also make the whole situation more clear and not look as uncertain.

But the intention is for it to buy time for such conversations to take place without any fear of sudden irreversible actions being done.

In any case, I look more forward to getting to know what future plans Steemit Inc and Tron have come together to find. I am an optimist at heart and do think that we can turn all of this into strength going forward. I have never seen this many witnesses get active as has happened following the acquisition news. Nor have I seen as many users participate in witness voting and conversation on the fundamentals of what we want this blockchain to be. And that is promising to me of a community that cares deeply about thsi chain.

Yes, I understand that groupthink can be an issue. Which is why these conversations now with the rest of the userbase is so important.

I much appreciate that you put trust in me and my team. I'm here for the long-game with Steem and will do my best to see it succeed.

do you have an information that witnesses did not try to talk to tron foundation? Because they said that they did try and were not able to. If you have that info would be nice to share it.

Also do you think that Steemit ninja mined stake (that was promised to not be used for votes and influencing witnesses) should be used for votes and witness votes?


It sounds like a Bank. I did not get into crypto for this kind of crap.

Yeah, it's exactly something a bank would do. For the good of all...


As I wrote in my statement, I struggled with this decision a lot. Few sleepless nights... Multiple people tried to communicate with Tron/Justin, but no respond and meanwhile their actions about token swap and voting his own validators on Tron, showed real threat to the Steem. I wouldn't want Steem to be spoiled by bad marketing and absorbed Steem name just because it helps Tron to market itself. You mentioned someone in witnesses said if powered down and sent to Binance, it would be different? I don't agree with that, powering down is same.
Many who invested time to build/invest made decision with good faith knowing that Steemit Inc. stake will only used for development of Steem, not abolishment of Steem. Content creators are investors as well, but there is slight difference.
Also, this is temporary until there is clear communication with Tron/Justin. Of course only time will show now, consequences of these actions. I respect your decision and would've chosen same if facts/actions were in favor. It wasn't easy, first time in my entire witness years, I really considered to take smooth's path but we sometimes have to make hard choices.

I hold you in high regard and am glad that it's not only me that had sleepless nights over this.

I also thought of just walking away but I can't, and believe me, having an opposite viewpoint from all the people I have known for so long has not been easy for me either.

Now that the decision to temporarily freeze is taken it seems silly to oppose it, the idea can't be put back in the box. It will always be out there, that parts pains me.

It's good to see you in the decision making progress regardless. You are, in my opinion, one of the best witnesses Steem has.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, man. It means a lot.

@exyle, Thank you so much for Speaking Your Mind and taking your absolute stand. Your points are really valid and no doubt in it. But in my opinion there were so many doubts and choice of words like, Token Swap, Bringing Steem to TRON and Steem Tron will be considered as real Steem on exchanges and words like Old Steem and New Steem. In my opinion all these words definitely raised many questions and AMA Session was reflected as a Joke. Definitely your points are valid but i have mixed feelings towards this decision, i am with this decision but after watching this video i am able to see the depth of it so now i am in the State Of Mixed Feelings.

As you said now we can just move forward. Let's see what is about to happen in near future. Stay blessed brother.

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Hey, @exyle.

Up until last night when I came home and saw my blog feed blowing up with the statements of witnesses, I was considering the idea of a forked out stake as a position of last resort. Very last resort, after it was evident that everything else had failed and that the STEEM blockchain was in jeopardy of existing and thus the stakes of everyone along with it.

And even then, it would still set a precedent and have repercussions because not everyone would want to recognize to what length or extremes were taken to preserve the STEEM blockchain prior to the freezing out.

But then last night I come home and find out it's not the absolute last option, but seemingly the first, couched in a softfork that while potentially reversible, basically states, "your stake is no longer your stake if we say so."

I've read the posts of several witnesses who were for it. I either missed it in each one, or there was no attempt on their parts whatsoever to reach out to Sun for some kind of clarification on his intentions. Did they? Was one attempt made? Two? It seemed like they were expecting him to come to them is what I get from it all.

I also wonder if they know whether or not Sun has any other STEEM sitting out on exchanges somewhere that can be brought in. He's highly suspected of doing that with TRON. If such is the case, and it's big enough, all of this is for naught. And as you say, at this point, how do you trust one another—how does Sun not move to secure his investment and position, and how do the witnesses ever allow the stake to go back?

All over a "social contract" about what the 'ninja-mined" stake would be used for with a previous owner that no one seems to like? For all of what he could have done better and not done, as far as I know, Ned never used the known Steemit accounts to do anything with other than pay his employees.

I don't know. It seems like there are people here who feel like they own more than they actually do. Which includes the stake of a company that created the blockchain in the first place. Social contract or not, this softfork, and the way it was done, was not the answer. And especially not the first answer.

  ·  2 years ago (edited)

Hey, @arcange.

I did see pfunk's summary after I wrote my original comment. However, you just filled in details I wasn't aware of after reading at least six (maybe more) such summaries. So thank you for that.

I understand completely that at the very least, the STEEM community must now somehow negotiate with an unknown actor in Justin Sun—at worst, depending on whether it's the PR that's telling the true story, a bad actor that intends to subsume the blockchain into TRON itself.

That for me, wasn't the issue as far as the Witnesses are concerned.

The issue is, ten days of deaf ears is apparently enough to tie up accounts on the STEEM blockchain now if they are deemed to be adversarial to STEEM.

Ten days for accounts that existed for basically four years that all involved agree after the fact should have been dealt with previously. That even though the actor in that case, Ned Scott, was known and for the most part, considered untrustworthy. Even so, no such move was actually made, though it was, kind of sort of slipped unto the table last year.

I agree with exyle—for better, for worse, or some point in between, the door for freezing out accounts has been opened. Reversible or not, the precedent has been set.

As it is now, I've quickly reached the understanding that it really doesn't matter what I think at this point. It's done, and my disagreeing with it is moot.

I do have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

Do you know if anyone is now watching to see if Sun is powering up any other accounts? Is there any contingency for that scenario? What are the Witnesses prepared to do if he were to do such a thing, or actually responds in some fashion that is either considered insufficient again or acting in bad faith?

It would be nice to know how the Witnesses will respond from here on out. It would be nice that they communicate that to the community, like they wish Sun would communicate such things to them.

  ·  2 years ago (edited)

Hey, @arcange.

I appreciate the thoughtful and substantial reply to my comment and questions. You're the first witness to do so on this post. I'm glad to hear that someone is watching to see the activity on the blockchain, particularly the powering up of large sums.

I'm also appreciative of your take on how the witness voting goes. For what our votes are actually worth, it is one of the very few ways we do have to show our displeasure with some action, stance or even inaction.

I'll need to head over to Curation Corner and see what's there. Didn't even know that one existed until you told me, so thanks for that information, too.

  ·  2 years ago (edited)


I think you said it well. I have not much to add. I also don't feel entitled to the STEEM of the company that created the blockchain. I never have.

On a side note: I do believe efforts were made to contact Justin before taking this action as other witnesses have replied here and in other posts.

Imagine some random person would come up to you and would try to harm you or your loved ones and you would have to defend yourself. And you would let your fists fly. Does that mean, afterwards, that you'll go around the city and punch people randomly?

Because that's the analogy I take from your position regarding: "Well, if Steemit Incs stake was frozen, it can happen to anybody".

I get how it might look that any stake is no at risk, but that is absurd and simply not true!

There is a clear line between freezing the Steemit Inc "ninja mined" stake, which was supposed to be used for Steem and is now threatening more than ever the integrity of Steem, and any other stake.

Here is a short story I made to explain what the difference is: https://steemit.com/steemit/@therealwolf/q67exs

I understand the fear, but the action was not right which you all witness did it. You show something that nobody own truly his coins, because this can be frozen anytime by the witness. If Facebook own the Stakes, than you true have a reason to be afraid and do it....to save the freedom of Steem(it)

You all wittness didn't ask us as community about your decision, you made it just in the underground. You Witness all are here for us, to work as the long arm of the community, but not as own small group who decide anything alone....

I am asking you honestly: What the witenss will think this is going further now after unfreeze the Stakes? What you all think, there all BEST FRIENDS now after that? The News Website allredy writing about that case, from today every investor ( nevermind how much he will invest), will be aware that his investment can be freeze at any moment. This is not any more "Your Key-your Coins", from today this slogan is history for Steemit Blockchain....

because this can be frozen anytime by the witness

This was always the case. Tell me... would the witness voters (stake holders) allow witnesses to start freezing investor stake left and right???

The answer is no. They would quickly stop being witnesses. This change clearly demonstrates the power of consensus and the ability of a community to act.

This was not a sad day. Quite the opposite.

You answer the question yourself. The Witness didn't ask anyone for that move. Does the witness made puplic request from us comunnity? Not at all....
We all are free people and have the right to say what we think about it, if this decisssion was right or wrong.

You should read that:


The Witness didn't ask anyone for that move.

  1. They did ask people.
  2. There were hundreds of posts on the topic where you could determine overall agreement.
  3. The community stakeholders gave witnesses votes because they trusted them to act for the good of the blockchain. If they did something stake holders didnt agree on they would be voted out and others would replace them and the fork would be reversed. The fact that their position is even stronger then before clearly shows where the stakeholders stand.

If you disagree vote for other witnesses. Thats what decentralization is about.

Read the cryptogee post. Commented already. He is dead wrong about everything.


i wanna be friendly here. i dunno what's more "dangerous". if what justin has been implying on twitter becomes true, nothing will be felt about steem because it'll be gone, "migrated" over to tron. so it's like justin was the one that's been telling steemians they'll be forked out?

as far as i can tell, the biggest stake holder talking about a transition to another chain and leaving out literally 100% of the details seem like a legitimate threat.

but acting vs saying is completely different so i do feel like fork could've waited. and justin did let stinc launch communities.
(maybe not stinc anymore cuz ned's stink is gone)

i was hoping both witnesses and justin would be reasonable and focus more on SMTs, but oh well..

only time will tell how much value steem will have in the market, but justin really needs to improve his communication skills.

사불급성 (駟不及舌). out of all people, he should know.

This whole episode conveys that assets in dPOS blockchains are not safe either by the actions of a single large holder or buy few coordinated stakeholders. We need to think through how to avoid such eventuality, for whatever reasons, through code.

Thanks for your opinion on this. I think if I was running a witness node, I would have followed your reasoning.

I think ultimately this decision by the witnesses came from a lack of communication from @justinsunsteemit which created irrational fear in the community. Some feared he would start voting for witnesses with the stake. So witnesses are doing that softfork 222 in order to protect their positions in the top 20.

Everything would have been perfectly fine, had he been half as active here as on twitter following the acquisition's announce.

Of course as you said, the the first thing a logical person would do after getting access back to the funds, would be to power down in many anonymous accounts and start voting for witnesses who did not support this move. So there's probably going to be a very long discussions before anything changes, and meanwhile the stake is held hostage...

"So witnesses are doing that softfork 222 in order to protect their positions in the top 20."

I'm not in the top 20. GuiltyParties is not in the top 20. Netuoso is not in the top 20. Nextgen is not in the top 20. Neither is SteemPeak, Actifit, Abit, liondani, riverhead, bhuz, pfunk, arcange, jackmiller, c-squared, mahdiyari...

Neither is theycallmedan or johal or Transisto.

There were plenty of people engaged in discussions over the past 10 days and plenty of witnesses that were not in the top 20 who were very vocal and very much involved in the entire process. To paint this as a "protective move simply for the top 20" is just factually incorrect. You guys can repeat it all you want, but the truth says the exact opposite, as you can see by the number of people who began running the code last night. There are witnesses all the way down in the 80s now running this version.

In fact, a pretty large majority of witnesses are now running version 0.22.2, so it seems that continuing to paint this as only a top-20 undertaking or protective measure is just a flat-out and provable lie.

Yet 2/3+ of the top 20 at least, agreed and patched to 2.22. Else the funds wouldn't be frozen. Most of the sub-20 are influenced by the bigger ones with more stake.

"So witnesses are doing that softfork 222 in order to protect their positions in the top 20."

for one, I am pretty sure no one did this to protect their position. As I outlined in my post, this was done having Steem at heart. All for Steem. Steemit Inc's stake as far as we can tell is not voting for witnesses, so that would not change. It is preventing the Steemit Inc stake specifically, which is bound to social contracts, to vote. As they where not voting anyhow obviously this doesn't change anything.

  • Or are you suggesting that Top20 (or better said all participating witnesses including even more beyond top20) were afraid of being removed (by using that big Steemit inc stake) because not in line with the "Tron Vision"?

Yes, that's a nicer way to put it.

Overall, adding code to arbitrarily change permissions like this is completely against decentralization principles. It also destroys the trust in the STEEM currency. If a mafia of 20 nerds can freeze your funds so easily, why would you want to ever invest into or hold steem?

Today maybe the only victim is Justin Sun, but tomorrow it could be apps or other large investors whose funds are taken hostage in a similar fashion, who knows?

Good. Justin Sun hoovers up I.T. and blockchain tech assets for the CCP. It's highly speculative to imagine any other outcome for STEEM blockchain than being disassembled and picked apart like a carcass for the fattening of one other.

So SteemIt will be disassembled by communists ?!?! That sounds like cold war fear propaganda.

I really don't see think that Justin Sun having chinese nationality as an argument for freezing funds, sorry. Communists are allowed to buy companies, they are people too!

Now, what I'm wondering is: would witnesses have acted the same if it was Elon Musk who bought the stake?

all this was communication shitshow. we will assimilate steem and swap your steem for whatever tron token. we have no intention to do that, for now. Steemit employes say no one in talks with them said anything about assimilation and swapping, then two hours later Justin on twitter again tweets about assimilation...

i would like to think that if Elon bought it and started talking about moving steem to another blockchain and swapping steem for some kind of SMT that they would do the same.

Of course they would not, they are racist witnesses! lol

I wasn't thinking only about that, but also the fact that with Elon Musk we would be able to put STEEM witness nodes in space and making sure everyone on the planet can receive new blocks

  ·  2 years ago (edited)

  ·  2 years ago (edited)

The main goal has always been to avoid one single entity throwing out all top 30 witnesses ...

Why not just reduce the number of witnesses one single account can vote for?
Five to (at maximum) ten witness votes per account would be enough!
At least it would make it somewhat harder for one entity to control the whole blockchain. I know it would still be possible to use multiple accounts for witness voting, but in that case the stake had to be spread on different account which resulted in less voting power.

Already now the influence of - for example - @freedom on witness voting is far too big.

  ·  2 years ago (edited)

I think this is a very irrational fear. Also, protecting from this does not require freezing funds, just making a fork before eventual 'token swap' happens.

I don't think anyone wants STEEM, a normal shitcoin, to become the shitcoin of another shitcoin (TRX). It has 0 chance of happening imo.

I noticed your interest in developing this community and making it move forward, so I suggest you join this community of support for beginners and reinforce their posts in order to motivate them and I am sure that you are someone who will do this. Greetings and all respect and appreciation towards the forward Welcome to You Deserve https://steemit.com/trending/hive-183209

Were there any violations of the Whitepaper by enacting this Soft Fork? If yes, then you have the right to cry. If No, don't hate the players aka "Witnesses" hate the Game aka "Blockchain and the code". The Whitepaper is King and by participating on the STEEM Blockchain you agree to the terms of the Whitepaper. Please point to a specific violation, not your hurt feelings. Facts matter.


Actually they did what I recommended. Even I am not a witness.

Feel free to be on the old chain with Justin "FUD" Sun.... in the meanwhile we the real people will build the real STEEM.

Your voice sound like you are on 2x speed.... you sound so stressed out... are you in the pockets of Justin?? Sounds like it!! So sad!

We can agree to disagree!!

Also Justin "motherfucker fud" Sun said he would make a token swap, then he change the statement later.... so he asked for it!

No other accounts will get nullified... you are just a Justin sucker ... Sucking at the power tit!


Hi Lasse. This is not the case that has happened.

  • This is a softfork, not a hardfork: a big difference is that all versions of the 0.22.x Steem software continue to operate, including those of exchanges.
  • No stake has been "forked out". Certain accounts, owned by Steemit Inc are currently blocked from executing certain operations on the chain.

I understand, in effect isnt it close to the same?

Justin can't powerdown, powerup, vote, not even move the steem in the steemit inc accounts?

In effect those accounts are frozen... even they still exists.

Hey @exyle, interesting review you dropped here. Thanks a lot! I'm curious what you think of the following:

Sun buying Steemit or the soft fork, it doesn't matter. Either way shows that the design of Steem is not trustless. I'm no expert, and I never really realized it, but to me, this looks like a flaw that should be fixed.

Right now we either have to "trust" Sun, the witnesses, or whoever has enough power. And that is kinda scary.

Am I missing something here?

You get it.

the only other thing you are missing is that Steemit was corrupt from the very beginning

This is such a bad take, imo.

I wrote about this more in my post, but a few key summaries:

  • We didn't do this to a "normal" user who happened to buy large amounts of STEEM. We did this to a company, who should have never held so much controlling stake in the first place. It's ninja mined, which means that for the rest of those tokens lifetime they are not "normal" tokens. If Justin bought 75 million STEEM without going through SteemIt, then that would be fine because we'd still have a powerful stakeholder to counteract the control.
  • Justin owns Tron and has beyond confusing messages about what the future is going to be. To act as though this is just any old dude walking in here and us freaking out, is not just wrong but maliciously so.
  • "I don't care if it's temporary", then I'm sorry to say but you're clearly missing the entire point of this softfork. We're not stopping someone from accessing the tokens they just purchased, we are using the rules that have been presented to us from the beginning to buy us a bit more time to think about our next steps.
  • In a dPoS system, what just happened is not only allowed, but is doable for this very reason. The community should be allowed to protect itself. How do you not agree with this?

To wrap up: This is a very disappointing response. Perhaps you weren't aware of the amount of confusion surrounding the acquisition. Perhaps you truly think that your random interview with an employee of SteemIt would solve the worries. Perhaps you don't understand the economics & potential downsides that occur if Steem is merged into Tron. Perhaps you weren't in attendance of the multi-hour long and multiple sessions of open forums that witnesses held on Discord, where literally hundreds of people tuned in & voiced their opinion.

I don't know how someone could arrive at a take as poor as the one your trying to get off in this video, but it's pretty disappointing coming from a witness who I thought was a good one in the past.

also this was published yesterday (24.02) by Tron Fondation as a weekly update. Check out number 1 and 5. do you think someone in Tron Fondation should be fired for not reading the memo for 10 days, or justin was not that honest at AMA?
tron staitment full.jpg

Yes, the most sad moment in STEEM history.

@stevoperon stop voting for Sun witnesses!

Another little dick dude, eh?

I hear you but my understanding is it is a soft fork and is only temporary. This can be undone and put right after the discussions surely. My feeling was it was to get Justin's attention and nothing else so it can be sorted out in a proper way.

I would have liked to have seen more communications and talks between Witnesses, Steemit Inc. and the TRON foundation first. Especially because they are meeting this week.

I think most of us were unaware of that information as well. If that is the case then I am with you saying it is wrong.

The meeting this week was between Steemit Inc.'s employees and TRON. I don't recall ever reading it would have anything to do with witnesses.

You are correct. It's between Steemit Inc and TRON.

And maybe you are friend with some of them, and maybe they told you something but that talk is between employer and employees that have contracts. I am sure that some of them knew something is going on, and said nothing, and i expect them not to. But that also means that Tron fondation speaking with them means nothing to steem community from information standpoint, because there may be a lot of things that they can't share.

lol, We all would have liked some communication from Steemit Inc over this past year, but Eli made 2 posts in the past year hahahaha. They set the precedent of no communication and forced our hand to Soft Fork. And unless there's a Smart Contract with Justins STEEM tied to it, there's no way to trust him.

Yeah right, it can't be undone! Justin would vote them out in a heartbeat now or power down to get out and move to vote them out in a heartbeat! Not sure but it's a stalemate now I think! lol

I feel your pain.

I sit in the middle because I do think there could have been a more concerted effort at negotiation direct with Justin Sun to come to some kind of signed agreement before going ahead and encoding this in the chain itself. A voluntary agreement along the lines of the White Paper promises and notarised with public statements on the block chain would have gone a long way. Who knows, he might even have agreed to the conditions in this fork if asked nicely.

I think the underlying contention in @agroed's post was that Ned's stake wasn't truly his to sell unencumbered. That's between Ned and Jason at this point.

But I've also been involved in enough business deals that didn't turn out as all sides expected, and ended up in expensive litigation to know that sometimes you are correct to be a little paranoid. Andy Grove (CEO of Intel) entitled his autobiography "Only the Paranoid Survive". Sometimes that maxim is true.

from what i heard, they did try to contact Justin (tron foundation) but there were no answers. i got that from the chat on discord, so no idea how did they try, who tried it... If it is true that they were all ignored, it does not look nice.

It's also obvious that he was very busy these last few days doing the Zion vote thing on Tron which is obviously a bit of a scarily close analogy to the situation here on the Steem chain.

  ·  2 years ago (edited)

that is what i say to people when i don't have the willpower to talk to them. i was really busy, my phone was not with me, notifications on this messinger are shit, pigeon that you sent never arrived

I agree with you, the mistake they made was to not involve Justin in the discussion. They just can't fork off a stake without talking to the owner, unless they are ready to split the chain into two coins.

But from what they say, the whole point is to avoid a split. So, kinda stupid.

I haven't decided fully where I am with all this, but I just want to commend you for standing for what you believe @exyle. You've put your point out clearly and I can totally see where you're coming from.

You're a man of principles. Thank you.

Thank you man, that is very nice of you to say.

It is a good lesson for all of us. Those little nuances differentiate real thing from a shitcoin. STEEM is now officially a shitcoin and witnesses approved it.

However, STEEM can still moon as a shitcoin. 🚀😂 But it will never become a real decentralized blockchain. 🥺

it is how it always worked. you don't agree with it, you can change people you vote for, and if there is enough witnesses that are against it, it will not work.

So is my STEEM worth more now due to the reduction of circulating supply?

Did these witnesses do this because Sun is Chinese?

Will they unfreeze it after Sun plays nice?

Now I know how ETC guys felt after The DAO Hack.

Posted via Steemleo

Did these witnesses do this because Sun is Chinese?

Excuse me? First of all, those 60+ people involved weren't only witnesses but most importantly, we're not racist. Seriously, what the fuck?

Sorry, bro, but some of you said you "quarantined" his stake. Words, man, words. Be careful with them.

Also, why do this to Justin when you could have done this to Ned for years, but didn't? Is it not obvious that Justin is a way better leader than Ned for Steemit? Actions, man, actions. Be careful with them.

you spoke some of my words man.I am not a Chinese but lately I'm also reading that racism kinds of posts and comments and it really feels bad. People here are not how they pretend to be..

hate for chinese people is the main force for this

*(hope you get the sound of my vice)


we all hate chinese people, especially now when they created this deadly virus :D

i know there are some people in the world that have some crazy views on people that look different than them, but it feels crazy that someone would think that he being chinese had anything to do with what was done.

Looks bad, bro. Ned was a negative force for years and they didn't do this to him. Now Justin Sun comes along and in 2 weeks they freeze his stake? Seriously, yo, how do you NOT conclude that race / fear of the unfamiliar could have played a part in this?

How new here are you? There was, in fact, a discussion to freeze the stake not that long ago, when Ned was in charge. But even if you weren't around then, if you attended the AMA, surely you read the comments that were being thrown around about Ned. Did they sound friendly to you?

And no, it wasn't fear of the unfamiliar, either. There was and is plenty of evidence that Justin planned a token swap. Given that you weren't apparently aware of the threatened fork under Ned, you should consider that there could be lots of things you're not aware of that led to this decision before you assume it was rascism and fear of the unfamiliar...Most of which are actually discussed in the trending post on this topic.

Look here, I never said it was racism. I just posited a question that maybe that had something to do with that. And given the responses here, I appear to have struck a nerve.

Your whole story proves my point. If it was threatened to Ned for months or years, why wasn't this tactic also tried with Justin?

Racism or not, Exyle is right. This is not very "blockchain" of any of the witnesses.

Yes, the nerve you struck is that people who are not racists do not like being false accused of it under the flimsiest of evidence. Just to be clear, you don't actually have to use the word "racism" to accuse someone of being a racist.

My story doesn't prove the point. You need to do more research before making such sweeping claims. It was the reaction of ned (an immediate powerdown) that led to a quicker reaction this time, to avoid the same thing happening again.

And, no, Exyle is entirely wrong on this point. DPOS-based blockchains were designed to work exactly this way as far as governance is concerned. I should know, I was one of maybe three people involved in its conceptual design.

DPOS governance encompasses the notion that witnesses can fork the chain. Users of the chain who don't like a fork have at least two options they can take in this case: 1) unvote the forking witnesses or 2) setup a separate fork (this latter option is available with any blockchain). The first is one extra advantage of DPOS-based blockchains.

Supply is not reduced, Justin can't vote but he can sell the stake.

He can't power down his stake.

I didn't understand this from the other posts. This is mindblowing.

I now go from against it to completely against it.

Yeah, it's not a good look.

They will have to come to agreement to unfreeze. That will be interesting to see.

Very interesting indeed. And then what? When he starts power down, will they freeze the funds again?

  • obviously this is not done because of racial backgrounds.
  • the circulating supply has not been altered.
  • whether the stake will be unfrozen depends on future talks and consensus. Let's see. If the witnesses were all paranoid and (for example) Tron is fine with having the stake (for example) be transferred to steem.dao for community projects, then all is good and decentralization wins the day!
  • this was not a hack. The code is submitted on an open-source public github account, run on several testnets with biggest participation rate of individuals on testnets seen since beginning of Steem development and then finally released and updated by a supermajority of witnesses, as can be seen in the utmost right column on https://steemd.com/witnesses

@exyle I totally get the point on the slippery slope.

It's a little scary actually, considering all the wonderful potential the Steem blockchain has.

But then again, I think it is the fear of the wonderful potential going up in smoke that prompted the Soft Fork. Because fear leads us to go on the defensive, do things pre-emptively for self-preservation.

I do hope this issue gets sorted out - and that fear wouldn't reverberate deep into our consciousness. <3

Is there an easy way to see which witnesses are running this fork?

You can see it on steemworld here @michelmake

Scroll down and you will see this on the left, click "witness overview"


You can see in the list which version the witnesses are running. Version 0.22.2 is the new softfork :(

Thanks! I check steemworld daily. Just never noticed that functionality :p

  ·  2 years ago Reveal Comment

Wait. So if Ned Scott powered down and sold everything to Justin Sun on Biance, that would have been okay? XD

That's what Exyle said in the video. But I can't imagine a supermajority of witnesses being OK with that. The whole point is that the Steemit Inc ninja-mined stake is a special case, as up to this point it has been clearly declared on many occasions as earmarked solely for the development of the Steem ecosystem, and to be non-voting in governance issues.

So no, selling it on Binance would not be OK according to a supermajority of witnesses. Check it for yourself:


So no matter who bought the steemit inc and/or their stake would be fucked? Good to know x)

Well, ehm, depends on how you look at it. Personally, if I had enough money to buy the Steemit Inc stake, I would do my own research before sending the money. I would then already know that the stake I was buying was promised to be exclusively used for the development of the Steem eco-system. Since the softfork now only codifies that, I would not be fucked.

I would think Justin did his research and used this knowlegde to negotiate a fair price with Ned. In that case, he should have expected there was a good chance this would happen, since after all this is a DPOS consensus based blockchain and this is how things work here.

I can see how its just codifies it now, that makes sense to me. But as @exyle, its done and thats a slippy slobe :)
And done his research ye well, I have been here over a year and the first time I knew anything about the Ninja-mined because of the buy. I had no idea before.

I don't believe in freezing anyones account I think that does more harm than good for potential investors I just think its a cock up on several levels. Justin knew this was not going to be a buy and port project since its a chain thats been running for some time now and he has more than enough funds, expertise and advisors to be able to put out clear statements

Then the whole Zion account voting in super reps on Tron news surely that's going to kick off peoples nerves

As for the freezing, yes it's extreme, I don't believe in it

I just hope it gets parties to the table to discuss. I think this Mexican standoff shows how dpos has its limitations and in a small chain like this supermajority can be used at will but I would hope that in future in theory it becomes more competitive as people pull witness votes and move them to where they see fit and so it goes on.

We can't change what happened but lets see how the all hands ends up! I think its just poor communication everyone wants the same thing and has different ideas on how to get to the same destination

It already resulted in parties coming to the table to discuss. It's set for 6th of March. See:


Thanks for sharing your thoughts

The mobsters have self exposed?

Excellent points! Well said!

Nice vlog with a different view, others don't agree with the softfork and this post help them to speak up.

I just came back to Steemit because I have time to start producing content again and I thought I was over my utter disgust of Steemit Management. Now I need to step back and take a look at what's going on. I understand the concern of the Huuuge amount of Steem that needs to be protected against the stakeholder using it for purposes that weren't agreed upon. From the beginning, I've felt uneasy and to really concerned over the huge amount of premined steem. That's why I think we need to get everyone to the table and write out a contract that protects all the property holders. I also think Ned needs to be taken to court for fraud but we don't know if Justin knew about the contract between Steem Inc and Steemit community. I get confused over this issue and the players involved, like Steem Ink, miners, bloggers, apps developers...you know all the players. So confusing! @exyle, I stopped by Steemit Chat and noticed you left me a message back in 2018, I didn't have my notifications turned on, I wasn't ignoring you....lolol

  ·  2 years ago (edited)


I believe the difference between selling the stake on binance and selling it all at once is just decentralization. Not that I disagree with your points, just throwin that out there.

In the end, there is nothing that is decentralized. The large stakeholders of anything will have the greatest influence. Decentralization when it comes to anything of value is laughable.

I have been writing in my post today about Witness votes. I can't quiet believe how few of the Top 35 are still running software version 0.22.1, and how many opted for so called softfork222. I totally understand and respect how you feel, it's another piece of shocking news on the platform. I think fair to describe the Steem as frozen but a little emotive to describe as stolen. I'm sure a resolution will be made, I am surprised to see the 6th March mentioned as the opening of talks - meaning it might not be resolved very fast! It would have been nice to clear up within a week!

steemd-witnesses- Top35.jpg

Sad day. And we'll all feel the consequences.

I'm with you 100% @exyle. It really is unbelievable to do this to anyone. It's stealing plain and simple. Sad day.

I am completely shattered by this! It's unbelievable! How can this happen? It's as if decentralization here is a lie? I agree with the over the counter. This is Hierarchy and class system at a whole new level. Ha! The ruling class of oligarchs have decided? He bought the bloody stake and i had such a great feeling about what he was aspiring to do. Marrying one of the four potentially best DLT crypto Networks to make three powerful entities that are actually corporative communities was amazing news. Can there still be a consensus? It sounds so immature and pretty shattering to my austro libetarian attitude towards the most exciting thing since the invention of the internet itself!

  ·  2 years ago (edited)

Well he forgot to add a link that to Justins blog when just few hours after that he said, "well i did not expect that but we have plans to talk so here is a first steemit Town hall in 2 weeks.

well he said it, but did not included the link. Well you have your sources most of us don't. The problem with ninja steem should have been dealt with long time ago. and witnesses are at fault that it did not happen. (it is not the best analogy but what do you think should happen if you buy a stolen car?)

Centralization: Single stakeholder has all the power (If Sun would use the Steem Power to vote on witnesses)
Decentralization: Witnesses make decisions to guarantee the decentralization of the chain (What happened).

Lol. I sometimes feel folks dont even understand the meaning of the words coming out of their mouths.

Respect!!! Exyle!!! An eyeopener!!!

While I considered the situation dangerous, I was also of the opinion that no token swap would be in the cards for a very long time because nobody would agree to any such thing until the Steem blockchain would be fully replicated in functionality on the Tron blockchain. Migrating Steem to Tron would be a massive undertaking. Smart contracts on Tron are written in Solidity and only a few devs at Steemit, Inc know the code inside and out. Are those guys also well versed in Solidity? Not very likely. There is zero chance of Steem being migrated to Tron in the foreseeable future.

Therefore, I consider the decision to do the soft fork rash. Now there is a trust issue between Justin Sun and a supermajority of the current witnesses of Steem. I hope it can be resolved. But once Sun's stake is released, what exactly will prevent him from voting in a totally different set of witnesses at the drop of a hat?

Welcome to Delegated Proof of Stake. This is how it works. This is how it was designed from the start.

It's kind of a shock that you didn't know.

"It's kind of a shock that you didn't know."

It was kind of a shock to many of us who were discussing this all week as well. We were under the impression that, as a long-time user, investor, and witness, Exyle understood how DPoS worked.

We also were surprised to learn that his account of what has taken place was very factually inaccurate (as I explained in my other comment to this post). Perhaps if he had spent a little more time engaging in the discussions - instead of showing up for just over an hour a couple of days ago and telling us how we didn't understand what we're doing, then leaving - he may have had a more firm grasp of the situation and, you know...the actual facts.

Indeed, if the supermajority agree their will be done be it good or bad it be done!

Yeah, that's exactly how DPOS works. But as a community we can vote on witnesses. So please take this lesson to make sure you vote on the witnesses you trust. And if you believe the POV of @blockbrothers is the best, tell everyone to vote for them and why.

Yeah, that’s what we need.. a witness who doesn’t even understand DPOS. 🙌🏼


Let's not be too harsh here. Looking at the video he struck me as being pretty emotional about it. I think it's because he just loves Steem too much. Love can sometimes blind a man a bit, don't you think?

The announcement post didn't set the context explicitly, assuming the audience would have a good idea. I wrote a post to fill in those blanks. I'm interested to know if it changes your opinion at all. Even if it doesn't I would still like the feedback. Thanks!

I 100% agree with you. Well done for having your say.